Geometrie della distruzione e matematica del combattimento

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Offline Darth Dorgius

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Re:Geometrie della distruzione e matematica del combattimento
« Reply #15 on: June 29, 2011, 15:53:28 pm »
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uhm ma quello di cui state parlando nn ricade nel concetto generale di guardia? insomma, facendo un esempio stupido a mani nude, se tiro un diretto tengo l'altro braccio in guardia perchè statisticamente so che se il mio avversario  contr'attacca lo farà sulla linea d'attacco tenuta libera ( una la sto occupando già io con il mio attacco)

Anche! :)

Qui in particolare il discorso è legato comunque allo spostamento.
Cittadino del Territorio Libero di Trieste.

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Offline Atreides

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Re:Geometrie della distruzione e matematica del combattimento
« Reply #16 on: September 04, 2011, 11:53:01 am »
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Più che altro è il nostro avversario che non ci vede più.....se ne accorgerà una frazione dopo e...più che vederci sentirà il colpo arrivare sul collo...  :whistle:

Impossibile non quotare il M. ***** e anche ciò che dice Dorje.
Infatti è un discorso legato allo spostamento con relativo attacco nell'angolo cieco (quello dove il ns "avversario" per una frazione di secondo non ci vede).
È una strategia molto intelligente, che ho allenato col M. ***** e alleno comunque sempre in quello che faccio, perchè ti evita di rimanere frontale all'altro e ti fa lavorare il footwork.
Il tutto secondo me risale (tramite ricerche fatte) ad un discorso più ampio di geometrie sacre del combattimento (ripeto mia personalissima ricerca ed opinione) e comunque è davvero fine perchè fa lavorare in primis quello che dovrebbe essere il primo "muscolo" allenato: il cervello  :D
Buona allenamento a tutti.

Diego

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Offline Crux

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In generale reputo che la scherma debba ridurre le azioni ai minimi termini per essere bella.

"Using derogatory descriptions of other members for not sharing the same opinion and acting obnoxiously condescending and self-important doesn't exactly give you the appearence of having an adult mind. "

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Offline Dipper

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Offline Crux

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Re:Geometrie della distruzione e matematica del combattimento
« Reply #19 on: September 04, 2011, 15:41:42 pm »
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un po' tutta la scherma spagnola nel rinascimento era ossesionata dalle geometrie che poi venivano tracciate sul pavimento e racchiuse da un cerchio per praticare sia soli od a coppie, l'affondo diretto non veniva usato quasi per niente in questo sistema.
In generale reputo che la scherma debba ridurre le azioni ai minimi termini per essere bella.

"Using derogatory descriptions of other members for not sharing the same opinion and acting obnoxiously condescending and self-important doesn't exactly give you the appearence of having an adult mind. "

Mein Herz schlagt fur Metall, Eisen gibt es uberall
Die familie der Metalle ist die harteste von allen.


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Offline Crux

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Re:Geometrie della distruzione e matematica del combattimento
« Reply #20 on: September 04, 2011, 17:48:23 pm »
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questo e' il tracciato con anche i passi evidenziati

http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2553051220102177954emmJHw

e le misure antropometriche a cui le linee  si relazionano

http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2454999050102177954QmfUCQ
In generale reputo che la scherma debba ridurre le azioni ai minimi termini per essere bella.

"Using derogatory descriptions of other members for not sharing the same opinion and acting obnoxiously condescending and self-important doesn't exactly give you the appearence of having an adult mind. "

Mein Herz schlagt fur Metall, Eisen gibt es uberall
Die familie der Metalle ist die harteste von allen.

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Offline Crux

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Re:Geometrie della distruzione e matematica del combattimento
« Reply #21 on: September 04, 2011, 18:42:14 pm »
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Spanish School of Fencing "La Verdadera Destreza" (Spanish Rapier)


Spain was unified in 1492 by King Ferdinand and Queen Isabella, forming an ultra-catholic, ultra-powerful country that would within one hundred years settle the New World, drive the Turks out of the Mediterranean Sea, expand into Italy, see wars with France and lose a climactic battle agaisnt the rising star of England in 1588. The Spanish School of Swordsmanship was created (in part) from their experiences in warfare and it colored their style in a distinct manner. 

Jeronimo de Carranza is considered the father of the Spanish School of Fencing, in what is known a bit incorrectly as the Magic Circle, or what the Spaniards called, "Destreza". His book published in 1582, The Philosophy of Arms, of its art and the Christian Offense and Defense, not only laid down the groundwork for the Spanish School, its title can give us insight as to the underlying principals of the style which lasted for 300 years.

The title alone tells us that Destreza was more than a manual on how to fight with a rapier, it was also a philosophy that was to teach a fighter to use his brain, his body and his training to further the efforts of Catholic Christianity. During Carranza's time, the Catholic faith was still reeling from the effects of the Reformation, the enlightenment of the Renaissance and the ever present Turkish, Muslim threat. Spain, as the self appointed defender of Catholicism, meant that its people, Carranza included, were interested in the success of their faith. Carranza's work had a moral aspect to it, not just physical.

Destreza took ideas from the Greeks in terms of mathematics, noteably geometry to devise a system of fighting based on circles and angles. A fighter for instance imagined a circle around him that told him where to step, how to advance and at what range to keep his opponent.

 On the left is the "Magic Circle". This was drawn on the floor as a training tool and there is no 'magic' to it, the names such as 'Magic Circle' and 'Circle of Death' were added later, not by the contemporary Spanish masters. The footprints indicate how to circle clockwise and counter-clockwise, so that a right handed fighter might always keep his blade pointed at his foe, creating a right angle with his arm, blade and leg.

The circle itself indicates direction. The lines within the circle reveal ways the student of destreza can cross the circle for the purpose of attack or defense, by stepping in and out.

The human body drawn in the center would be a reference point for instructors, with it they could demonstrate the circumfrance of the circle, but also analyze the human form and make reccomendations on when and where to attack.

These lines and patterns are based on the geometric ideas of the Greeks, while the interest in the human form is a byproduct of the Renaissance. The circle is just the start! There are other circles, including one around each combatant! 

The Spanish fighter was known as a "Diestro". The Diestro held his blade extended, using a slightly pronated hand to keep his opponent at bay (Italian Terza). Rather than lunge at the opponet, the Diestro sought to make contact with the blade. This blade on blade contact was called "atajo", and it was believed a fighter could 'sense' the intentions of his enemy through the contact. This blade sense was known as 'tacto'. If attacked, the Diestro sought to side-step the blade and deflect with a 'deviso'. There were no solid parries in the Spanish system, enemy attacks were evaded with a shifting of the blade and the movement of the body. 

The image on th left is from a 1628 manual, Academie de L'Espree, by Girard Thibault of Antwerp, who borrowed from Carranza's method. He is also the one who first showed circles on the floor as a tool for training.

The image shows the circle and method of holding the sword. Note the blade is held high to keep the tip continually pointed at the opponent's face. The arm is fully extended, but the elbow is not locked.

Unlike the Italian School of Swordsmanship where fighters made dramatic advances upon one another, Destreza is about aversion. Unlike the Italians, the Spanish who used Destreza were not out to prove anything. They were seeking to fight and come away unscathed as the victor. This is perhaps from the military background of the time where survival trumped any ideas of showing off manly valor, especially against opponents who were of a different faith and who didn't 'deserve' to be treated with honor.

In terms of attack, the Spanish system did not use lunges, but instead advised taking single steps as a means of performing a thrust, known as an 'estocada'. Cuts were also performed with steps, with the blade (edge or tip) striking at the same moment the lead foot completed the step. This allowed the body to be behind the force of both thrusts and cuts, but did not over-extend a person as might occur with an Italian lunge.

This continual circiling, side-steping and avoidence techniques made the Spanish School both feared and reviled.

George Silver of England in his 1599 manual, Paradoxes of Defense, likened the Spanish to dancers. In William Shakespeare's, Romeo and Juliet, first published in 1597, Tybalt the villain uses the Spanish style of fencing, which would no doubt earn riddicule and 'boos' from the audience. Romeo, using a much more direct Italian style, slays him.

One must bear in mind that England was no freind of Spain. In 1588 the Armada nearly invaded England and its defeat only about a decade prior to Silver and Shakespeare's work perhaps explains why the English speaking world held equal fear and disdain of anything originating from Spain.

The Spanish method is very effective. With a fully extended sword and a circular movement pattern, the Spanish diestro has plenty of time to react to attacks. The holding of the arm can be tiring, however as an Italian fencer named Salvator Fabris mentioned in his Scienza d'Arme, published in 1606.

Despite any weariness from holding the blade, the method was lauded and virtually unchanged for 300 years! The masters knew what they were doing!
In generale reputo che la scherma debba ridurre le azioni ai minimi termini per essere bella.

"Using derogatory descriptions of other members for not sharing the same opinion and acting obnoxiously condescending and self-important doesn't exactly give you the appearence of having an adult mind. "

Mein Herz schlagt fur Metall, Eisen gibt es uberall
Die familie der Metalle ist die harteste von allen.

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Offline Crux

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In generale reputo che la scherma debba ridurre le azioni ai minimi termini per essere bella.

"Using derogatory descriptions of other members for not sharing the same opinion and acting obnoxiously condescending and self-important doesn't exactly give you the appearence of having an adult mind. "

Mein Herz schlagt fur Metall, Eisen gibt es uberall
Die familie der Metalle ist die harteste von allen.

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Offline Atreides

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Offline Crux

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Re:Geometrie della distruzione e matematica del combattimento
« Reply #24 on: September 05, 2011, 10:56:32 am »
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cercate una copia tradotta del "Academie de l'Espree" di Thibault, l'articolo fa' vedere i diagrammi ma non li spiega.  :)
In generale reputo che la scherma debba ridurre le azioni ai minimi termini per essere bella.

"Using derogatory descriptions of other members for not sharing the same opinion and acting obnoxiously condescending and self-important doesn't exactly give you the appearence of having an adult mind. "

Mein Herz schlagt fur Metall, Eisen gibt es uberall
Die familie der Metalle ist die harteste von allen.


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Offline Bersek

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Re:Geometrie della distruzione e matematica del combattimento
« Reply #25 on: September 05, 2011, 14:43:50 pm »
+1
Grazie, molto interessanti i tuoi apporti!  :)
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Offline Crux

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Re:Geometrie della distruzione e matematica del combattimento
« Reply #26 on: September 05, 2011, 15:11:07 pm »
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 ;)
In generale reputo che la scherma debba ridurre le azioni ai minimi termini per essere bella.

"Using derogatory descriptions of other members for not sharing the same opinion and acting obnoxiously condescending and self-important doesn't exactly give you the appearence of having an adult mind. "

Mein Herz schlagt fur Metall, Eisen gibt es uberall
Die familie der Metalle ist die harteste von allen.